What’s an Interview? Some advice for bootcamp grads.

THIS WAS ORIGINALLY POSTED IN 2020, BUT RE-DATED AS STILL VALUABLE TODAY (5/15/2024)

Some background: I graduated Flatiron School at the end of August, 2020. Since then I interviewed at two different tech companies, and was fortunate to win both of those positions; the first was a part time job, the second was full time. What’s more is: I think I only applied to a total of less than 10 places (only the places I was really interested in), and also: the two jobs I got were from the only two companies I interviewed at.

While part of me feels lucky, I know of many other bootcamp grads that cycle through interviews without ultimately converting. Many grads who have been more diligent and successful than I have in getting interviews but not crossing over. There are lots of articles about what a bootcamp grad can do in terms of networking, how to present your resume, and how to conduct yourself during an interview… but as I reflect on my approach versus what the majority of content suggests: there are a few differences worth mentioning. The first is how I look at an interview.

So, “What is an Interview?” Many articles address this in the context of a “culture fit” interview as well as a “technical” … essentially, that you want to reassure your prospective employer that “you’ll get it done” no matter the challenge, and also that you’ll be good on a team. I don’t think that perspective is incorrect, but the perspective that I think may be more helpful is to view the interview as your prospective employer having decided to take a leap of faith and offer you the job. Of course your first interview isn’t a job offer, but if all goes well, then it is the first step in that direction. For those of us that have some familiarity with sales concepts (whether from books or experience), the corollary would be: if a prospective buyer comes to you, then the sale is yours to lose.

Extending that analogy to job seekers and the interview process: the most helpful perspective I believe you can have is: If you’ve made it to an interview, even a culture fit… then the job is yours to lose. Think about it from the perspective of the person (or people) interviewing you: while it must be exciting to meet many new people, working to figure out who will be the best fit out of all the applicants, and having the power to change someone’s life by giving them a “gift of opportunity”… I imagine that (like all jobs) there are also aspects which can be exhausting.

As for “the aspects” which I imagine are exhausting are the situations when a human resources professional has to tell an applicant “no”, or choose one candidate over an equally compelling candidate, and to be cautious about correspondence because one does not want to raise hopes that may never be fulfilled.

I’ve found that as emotionally exhausting as it is to receive bad news, it is perhaps just as (if not moreso) exhausting to be its bearer; for being the bearer of bad news carries the weight of delivering it. With that in mind, when YOU the job seeker make it to an interview (even an introductory chat): it’s my opinion that there is a mutual hope that all will go smoothly. So much better to get to the celebration, the offering, and the joy quickly, rather than get to know someone only to have to say “no, sorry.” The flip side of this would be, “if this isn’t going to work out, let us know NOW.”

So, to the point of an interview being akin to an “it’s your job to lose”-type-of-experience (or frame), I believe that the mindset one should have is not so much to “Get To Yes”, or even to “Not To Do Anything Wrong”, but to assume that you are STARTING at “almost yes”… and that if you’re at an “almost yes” then there is really only one thing to do from there: vindicate the interviewer in their decision to interview you!! It may be worth mentioning that vindicating an interviewer’s choice in talking to you is a much stronger frame than “reassuring” them. Reassurance is all about “don’t worry, everything is going to be okay…” and yet, when we find ourselves being “reassured” in life, it usually feels more like a premonition of something bad.

As for vindication… the dictionary definition of vindication talks about “clearing someone of blame” and that’s a bit negative, but think of it this way: if you’re a hiring manager and you interview 1000 people to fill 1 position, perhaps the company is very exclusive and it must turn down 99.9%. However, I suspect it’s more likely that someone responsible for such a lousy conversion rate might find themselves on a chopping block. So when I say you want to “vindicate the interviewer in their decision to interview you”, it’s my view that there is some small risk for whoever is interviewing you, to have chosen to take time out of their day, to take that time away from someone or something else… and give it to you.

To make one more analogy, this time from the world of venture capital. I’ve heard that VC firms invest in tons of companies, a majority of which go out of business, but that it’s really only the unicorn that matters: the single unicorn on which the firm builds their brand and finances future investments. In other words, that one unicorn vindicates and validates what they’re doing. Tying it back to what we’re talking about, when you go into an interview: show proof, show promise, and potential that you might be that unicorn; that YOU are the investment worth making.

So, how do you do that?

You must radiate positivity in direct proportion to how sincere you are about wanting the job. For me, the two interviews I had were for companies that I looked at as something other than companies, but destinations. Places that I wanted to be at. And communities I wanted to belong to. With that in mind (and this might go against common job seeker advice) but I would recommend AVOIDING applying at places which you only have a lukewarm feeling about. I believe that while applying to jobs may feel like a numbers game, you don’t want to treat it like roulette. If you’re going to “play the numbers” in your job search, let it be like Billy Beane (of the Moneyball Story), or Nassim Nicholas Taleb (author of Fooled By Randomness, The Black Swan, and Antifragile) or someone else that uses the numbers to increase their odds and not just rack up points.

In short, unless you look at the job as something that is either “a calling”, or perhaps the first steps in the direction of one… then you will likely be better served by working hard to pursue the skills you need to become a stronger candidate (whether that means learning a new technical skill, or learning more about soft skills; two great books on soft skills are the classic How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie, and the more recent Pitch Anything by Oren Klaff).

Now, if you’ve been job searching for even a little while, you’ve probably heard the advice to apply to jobs that you don’t really want because it’ll help you get interviewing practice for the one’s you really want. While it’s good and practical to apply to places “for the practice”, I think it’s somewhat ill advised in the scheme of things. For, if you apply to a job you don’t want (just to practice) then you’re intentionally wasting the time of an interviewer who had hoped their search might end with you.

While I have the impression that many job seekers view their interviewers as gatekeepers or obstacles to the job, I hope to have made it clear from above that I believe your interviewer to be your first champion in the job search — the first one willing to take a chance on you — and the first person at your new company whose decision you want to reaffirm. If you were in their shoes, how would you feel if you knew “the person you thought you might champion” was taking the meeting “just to practice.”

Coming back to the interview… and how you might take it to the next level? Well, supposing you’ve stopped spending time on applying at places just for the sake of applying, you’ve cut out the “illusion” of productivity in favor of skilling up. You’ve freed up enough time that you only go after the places you think you can get excited about, and now made it to an interview…

If you agree with the basic premises above, then research the company as if your future depended on it (because it does). In preparing for both interviews some things you might do are: reach out to current employees (if you know them already), and if you don’t know anyone, read about the company in the news. Find out what there is to be found out about them from trade magazines, online journals, whatever. Look at the reviews on Glassdoor, read other job postings from your prospective companies. See if any current employees are thought leaders on some topic and read their writings. If the company has press releases or a blog, read as much as you can. If the company lists all their services, read what all of those services are as if you might have to sell them (even if it’s a non-sales role). If a company does sales (and all of them do), then your/our role as a technical specialist is to support the company in its growth; make sure you have some understanding of how to contribute to that system, and how you might fit in with the community.

Most of all, be humble. Not in the sense that you are not proud of your achievements, but in the sense that you readily acknowledge you do not have “answers” for your prospective company, but you come willing to help find them, and also (perhaps more importantly) that you come willing to ask and be asked questions. To clarify: when I say “you do not have the answers, but come willing to help find them” I mean that in the context of business problems, and solving yet-to-be-solved problems. In the context of a technical interview you should most definitely have answers, or, a sense of how overcome your own limitations (more on that below…).

In other words, be mindful that when you are questioned in an interview (or in life) the answer may often be less important than how you handle the question. I remember once hearing, (perhaps falsely) that a famous hedge fund would ask prospective employees “trick questions”. The story relayed to me was by someone who had failed an interview; they claimed that they were asked to respond to the question “Is all war bad, all the time?” to which they responded with what they thought was an acceptable response of “yes, I would say ultimately war is always bad, all the time” to which their interviewer responded “What if aliens invaded the Earth?”

To that extent that anecdote may be relevant in a coding interview, I suspect that there’s a 50/50 chance that you might get a question you have no idea on how to answer. If you treat the question as a litmus test and the answer is that you don’t know, then you’ll fail immediately. On the other hand, if you consider the question as a request for insight into how you might solve an impossible problem; as a request for insight into how you think: then your tact is different. The goal becomes not to necessarily solve the question (although that would be excellent) but to showcase your problem solving efforts, to reveal how you might identify the constraints of a problem, and how you might break it down into sub problems. While I have not heard of tech companies asking intentionally unsolvable questions, I suspect being asked an unsolvable question could be a blessing in disguise; for it shifts the focus from “You With All The Answers” to “You Who Can FIND The Answers” in a more straightforward way.

Speaking personally, once I knew I was going to be interviewed, I did hours of active research; active in the sense that as I read, I would try to figure out how what I was reading might relate to me, and what I might learn. As the two companies I interviewed at were both exciting for me, I also used my opportunity to prepare and research as an opportunity to learn more about myself; to imagine what my life might be like if I worked there, and how I might make a positive impact for my peers and managers, and ultimately the clients. I tried to figure out what was hidden between the lines of what was written and what might be. I also tried to find out what analogies could be made from what I was discovering about some position/company, to life at large, that I might have a greater understanding of the world around me… SO, when I finally made it to the interviews, as much as I viewed them as the chance to prove my worth and offer value, I also viewed them as personal challenges to test out what I knew and how to handle the stuff that I didn’t. Note, while that might sound like “practice”, the focus was not on practicing for some “other” interview, but more of a competition with myself — to see if what I was able to learn would be enough to affirm, validate, and vindicate someone willing to take a chance on me, as well as to reinforce (or refactor) my approach to learning, and recalibrate whatever perceptions I held.

In conclusion, an interview is opportunity knocking at your door, hoping to see if you can rise to the occasion and embark upon a difficult quest that may (hopefully) last many years… so, when you answer the call, make sure your bags are packed and that no matter the shortcomings you may have: THIS is the moment you’ve been waiting for.